AN INTERVIEW WITH WHOSWYLEE
whoswyLee (also known as “feat. wyLee”) is a Zimbabwean multi-disciplinary artist based in Johannesburg. Their artistic sense of self is ever evolving and what motivates their work at this time is to sonically capture the present. “My mind is always in past or in the future,” says wyLee, “but I want to get better at being here and using my music or art to reflect right now.” According to them, life right now sounds like “measured chaos” as they continue to embark on the journey of learning to heal themselves. “That includes pain,” wyLee says, “a deep uncovering. But it also includes embracing play and experimentation. It includes learning to appreciate all of me and attempting to arrive in full to the art I’m making.” They claim this accounts for why engaging with their work means witnessing them encounter themselves through a variety of genres and creative mediums. Since the start of their career, the self-proclaimed “wordy ass n****” has opened for AlunaGeorge, D.R.A.M., Mykki Blanco, Bbymutha & Dounia, and have appeared on the Huffington Post show “BARS”.
Sam: Have you been? I was so excited to get to have you on the podcast.
whoswyLee: I've been well, I've been good. You know, I’m back in South Africa, but definitely missing New York. And it was so good to hear from you because I'm missing you too! And it's great to meet you, Teresa.
Sam: So, I don't know if you've listened before, but we just love having artists that we care about and exploring their music. Especially for you, because I know that you've been through a lot of transition lately. You've been back in South Africa for a while now, right?
whoswyLee: Yes. I got back literally by the skin of my teeth on the day that my visa was expiring back in September. So yeah, I raced back home.
Sam: I've heard quarantine there has been a little intense. How has that been for you?
whoswyLee: Yeah, do you know what - it was like I was coming from a situation where I was staying at a friend's place. And, even though we were all in lockdown together, you have a whole house to experience each other. But because I traveled, I now had to be quarantined. I think it was like only 10 days or something like that, but alone in my room - which was a lot.
It was very intense, so I have that experience. And then I feel like things got better. Case numbers started improving. And so I finally got to get more of a sense of like, ‘okay, I'm acclimating to being back home’ or, you know, in my space. And then that new strain of Covid came around, and said, ‘get back inside, where do you think you're going?’ So, here we are inside.
How’s it been for you, navigating that - I’m sorry. As Sam knows, I also like to interview so I might have a natural tendency to throw things back in your direction.
Sam: It's all good, and it's been okay. I've been in New York since August, so I kind of am the exact opposite. But I think last semester it was kind of like a ghost town here, but now there's a couple more people back and it feels a bit more like the community. But on that note of being back, has being back pushed you to explore any new ideas artistically or musically?
whoswyLee: I would definitely say so, you know? I'm not used to the particular creative environments that have helped me develop as an artist up until this point. I've been very heavy on collaboration all throughout my solo career. And so, it feels weird to not be able to be in studio with my best friends and getting lost in time and lost in the music.
I feel like it's pushed me to be a lot more independent. You know, I've had to step my production game up, I've had to step my mixing game up. I’m now engineering by myself. I’m almost doing everything from start to finish by myself now, which is a fun journey, you know? It almost feels like starting over. It's daunting, but it's also been exciting.
Teresa: So now that you've learned how to do that production and engineering yourself, do you think that that's going to be an important part of your music going forward? Like, doing all that process yourself? Or, what new perspectives have you gained?
whoswyLee: Yeah, thank you for that. I feel like I have always been a bit of a backseat driver when it came to production and mixing. I'm super, super picky. So, I know you had Mamadou on - I have listened to a few episodes of the show, love the show by the way - and you know, I was listening to the Mamadou episode because I work with Mamadou a lot, I work with Krishna a lot, and they will both tell you that I'll be looking over Krishna’s shoulder like, ‘um, can you move that there’ and ‘let's add reverb there,’ ‘the delay stops exactly here, no further.’
So even production wise, I've been doing that I think pretty much since the start of my solo career. So I think, perhaps, this experience I'm having now has just given me a greater sense of authority. I kind of felt imposter syndrome - she was hitting a little bit, you know? It was me being like, oh, I co-produced but did I do anything? And so now I think I'm allowing myself to really step into those roles in full.
Sam: Yeah, and shout out to WKCR, but I know that a lot of the music got recorded in the studio. How’s it feel being away from that central place where so much of the music happened?
whoswyLee: Right, so what's funny about WKCR is I only started inhabiting that space and even recording in that studio after I graduated. But there definitely are cherished memories, and sometimes I'll listen back like, ‘oh my God, I miss my friends.’ I think I greatly enjoy the freedom of being able to sit with a mic and be like, okay we're running that tick again, again, again, you know? And I can do it all night - all day if I want to - and not feel bad about holding other people back.
So I think, again, it's giving me more freedom to explore, for sure. And I think I'm also getting closer and closer to actually making the music I want to make, because I think I end up just making songs I think are fun, but there are very few songs I have out right now that I'd say that sounds like me - like, what I'm trying to make and what I'm trying to bring into the world. I'm a songwriter, so I'm like, ‘okay, this song happened. Let's put it out,’ you know?
Teresa: And so, what is your process towards creating a song and what types of songs make you feel more like it's yours versus the other ones that you just kind of like put out.
whoswyLee: Yeah, so… I definitely in the past had a tendency to sound like whatever I was listening to. And so, if I'm listening to Solange, you know, those melodies come through like that or from, for those who have listened to me rap, on the rare occasion, that's usually because I was just listening to a lot of rap and I was like, ‘ah, I'm connecting to this mode of expression right now.’
And I also tend to write almost compulsively. Like, I will be walking and you'll see me with my phone by my face and I think people assume that I'm on the phone or something, and I’m whispering into voice memos - I’ll get to those later, maybe. Who knows.
But I think for me it's always the lyrics that come first, it's always the concept that comes first. And it's always fun to then get a beat from [indistinguishable] and then be like, ‘wow, okay, this beat. I feel like it's communicating with these lyrics that I have.’ Like, I didn't know that I was writing the song when I was writing it, but I see that this is now what's happening here, and so kind of doing a bit of a patchwork type of situation and putting the puzzle together. I think that's how most of my songs come into being.
Sam: So you said earlier that listening back to a lot of your music now, you don't feel like that is you - in that you're working on making music that represents you. Does that mean that you're creating differently? Does that just mean more reflection or does it mean a different style of producing music. Like, what's the difference between?
whoswyLee: Right, thank you for that, because I realized Teresa had asked me that and I forgot to attend to that part of the question, so thank you for that.
Um, yeah, I feel like a lot of the music I have out displays my skill set. But, when I think about the music that sounds like me, I'm more thinking about, like, songs that really target something deep, deep, deep within me. And really like - I don't know, I think I know the song sounds like me if, at that moment, it sounds like my favorite song. I think I want every song I make to be my favorite song of the moment. And I've only really had that experience with a couple of the things I've put out so if I'm not doing, you know, the church hmmms by the end of the session, I know that wasn't it.
It's not even that they’re particular sounds, it's really just like song to song, feeling to feeling. And also ensuring that I'm being honest, because I used to have a tendency to hide behind my lyrics, so I think what my music sounds like is increasingly whatever feels like it's coming from, the most honest place.
Teresa: And has that process, like being honest, what has that been like? Because I feel like, not even writing music, but a lot of the times it's hard to really be honest and to heal yourself through art. How has that process been, and is it more healing? Or do you still struggle a lot with that?
whoswyLee: Yeah, I think that making music has always been healing for me, but I think it was just about what is being healed, what are we touching right now, you know? So, at the beginning of my career - it's so funny to me to say that: “my career” - I feel like I was on a journey to impress myself, and by extension of that, to impress others. And so, I think with that I was healing. Again, maybe it's the sense of imposter syndrome or something like that, just to prove to myself that this is a space I can inhabit and feel like it's comfortable for me.
And so, as I've been developing and pursuing honesty in my work, I think it really has looked like trying to leave the thrills and frills alone, and to make sure I'm really communicating with myself, right? And not hiding behind a double entendre or triple entendre. And that's been healing in a new and very beautiful way. Then, my music becomes more of like, recorded confessionals. I think the part that has been difficult has been now that there's more to consider. When the story is played on the tables and everybody knows what you're talking about - at least for me as somebody who tends to want to people-please and want to keep the peace and all of that - it can be very daunting to step into my truth and say, ‘hey, I had this experience with this person, and this is what happened.’ This is the real real, you know?
So trying to think about, ‘what does it mean for me to have a platform to explore my experience of other people when they might not have that platform,’ you know? And to be the sole voice of a situation. I feel like that's one of my biggest considerations now as I'm trying to be honest.
Sam: Yeah, that totally makes sense. And something that I've always really appreciated about your music is that it seems like you can switch in between styles effortlessly. Like, you can be rapping one second, you can be belting the next second. So, to go into the music - I really loved the, at least the recent drop on YouTube, “Forever.” And I was wondering, is that the sound that you're going towards, or is that more of a demo type situation? Talk a little bit about that song.
whoswyLee: Absolutely. So “Forever” is a super, super fun song to me, and I'm so glad you brought it up, because, you know, she did not get some of the love that my other songs have gotten. So I appreciate that. But yeah, how that song came into being - I actually wrote it my sophomore year.
So I've had those lyrics, like, stowed away forever and I came into music thinking I was just going to write for other people. So in fact, it was somebody else's song. And I was using a YouTube beat at the time to write it. And then, last year ‘round about, I want to say, January, Amiri played me this beat. And I was like, yo this is so fine, I need to hop on. Like, I need this, thank you so much. And when it was going, I remembered those lyrics, and I was like oh this, this is that! It was again that moment of like, I didn't know I was making the song, but I finally met it.
Sam: Is that a direction that you're continuing to pursue or is that more a one-off type sound?
whoswyLee: For sure. So I think that it's, again, a case of like, that really excited me, and so I did it. And I love those sounds, I love Amiri’s production, so I wouldn't be surprised if there are more in that world, but I really won’t know until those songs come into being.
I feel like, you know, it could sound in that sense that there isn't much intention behind the sounds that I engage with, but I think it's more than my intention to set in, like, how those sounds make me feel. So, if I'm not resonating with that sound that day, you know, maybe there isn't “Forever” 2.0. But call me next week and it might be a different story.
Teresa: That's really interesting you say that because I used to play a lot of piano but I never did that traditional music theory thing. So a lot of the way I approach piano isn't there, like theory, it's just how it feels. So what is your musical background, how did you get into music, and how has that evolved over time?
whoswyLee: Yeah, thank you for that. So, it's funny you mentioned piano because that's kind of the instrument that inducted me into songwriting. Growing up, my parents got me this keyboard - I never took lessons - but I taught myself how to play. And so, I could play chords, just enough to write behind them. And the songwriting itself, I used to write a lot of poetry when I was younger, but I think as I got older, it felt like I couldn't tell if my poems were good anymore. I couldn't tell the difference between, like, an earnest poem and a corny poem. But I think I found a lot of security in songwriting because I was like, oh, I can tell that this works, I can tell that this doesn't work
So, I think songwriting just gave me a sense of greatest security in my writing, and really up until I started working with Krishna, my sophomore year, every song I wrote would begin at the piano. Like, I used to go to one of the residence halls, you know Chateau Shapiro, and be in the piano lounge until like 5 A.M., just playing with chords and playing with melodies. So even songs like “Rolling,” that started at the piano. “Forever” definitely started on piano, and a bunch of others.
Speaking more about musical background because - another thing I love to do - I love to layer. I can do layers all day. And that, I think, really comes from my background in the church. My mom joined the choir when I was maybe like 11 or 12 years old, and I was like, ‘oh, that's so cool,’ so I joined with her.
And then my church did this thing where it kind of split and we now had a teens ministry, and I was like the only teen in the choir so they were like, oh, you're gonna be the teens choir coordinator, knowing absolutely zero about music theory - I still don't know any music theory - but again, we're on some “fake it till we make it.” So, I started as the choir coordinator for the teens ministry, and I would spend every Sunday afternoon, like right after church, just with the choir coming up with different arrangements and playing with the harmonies and setting the setlist for next week’s Sunday.
And, you know, it was just so much fun and I think that's where I really developed my love for layering and for harmony and for that choir feel, that choir essence. I love that.
Sam: Yeah, like, it's funny that you're talking about layering because I definitely noticed that in all your releases. But I was also wondering about the visuals in your work. And, I mean, that “Dream Girl” video, we kind of brought it up at the beginning, but it's just so beautiful and fun. I know you said you were storyboarding, like, in the process of doing CC and other classes. But what was it like to shoot? It seemed like such a fun shoot.
whoswyLee: It was. It was such a good time and, you know, there's so many people I consider close friends just through having had that experience together. I was friends with Amiri, I was friends with Matt at the time, but I think I very randomly was like, listen we’re going downtown, we're shooting this video, come do behind the scenes, we're hanging out! So I think that's what it was. It felt like all of us just hanging out, but we have to stand in this place and a camera is going to be in our faces like that and like, whatever. So, I think it was just like one giant, great time. Yeah, it's definitely a time I look on with a lot of nostalgia and warmth and love for everybody, so just like a dream for me.
Teresa: And so it sounds like that sort of community aspect is part of your music. Has that changed since you've moved back?
whoswyLee: I think the only real change is that that community has gone online now. And that has provided new opportunities where other opportunities to commune have been taken away. But I think, also, a very big change to my creative community is that I'm actively looking to be in community with more black artists, more black producers, trying to find more local artists, you know, to link with. I haven't had much luck there yet.
But yeah, I think those have been the major changes. And I think that expressing gratitude for each other and an appreciation for each other's music, like going out of your way to do that, has also become a bigger point of community, for me at least. Because we're not in the same space to be able to just enjoy each other and be able to give to each other in the ways we would have before. So I think these days, most of my online presence looks like - ‘OMG new Amiri has dropped, OMG new Isaac Thursday just dropped’ - hyping my friends up online.
Sam: You were kind of hinting at some of the stuff that you've been getting into outside of music, at least earlier to me. And you were talking about Afro Pessimism and a bit about astrology. Could you talk to me about some of the stuff you've been into outside of music lately?
whoswyLee: Absolutely. What I have come into realizing is that I think undergrad, it really dampened my natural curiosity and my natural appetite for study. And so, now being more in control of my own time and just thinking about some of the things that I explore in my music, I think I'm finding critical theory and black studies to be places of furthering the conversations that begin in my music. And that's been really interesting and that's been really fun, and I have some of those conversations with some of my collaborators, as well.
So with Afro pessimism, you know - perhaps it’s not apparent on my SoundCloud because as I said, those really exist just as songs that I happen to make - but there is a lot of writing that's happened behind the scenes that explores my black experience, what it means to be a continental African who is still in diaspora, because I'm in South Africa but I'm Zimbabwean. So, not that distanced of a diaspora experience, but still diaspora nonetheless - so I feel like Afro Pessimism is just now pushing conversations I'm having with myself even further, and then that’s showing up in the music again in really interesting ways and showing up in my mode of creating beyond the lyrics themselves.
I think astrology is doing the same thing for me, you know? I think I am - well, I kind of feel like I'm gassing myself up here - I feel like I'm a natural communicator. And so I'm interested in the art of articulation, like, that is what excites me. So to have Afro Pessimism come in and articulate, you know, my black experience in a way that I hadn't necessarily heard before, and then to get astrology that articulates my earthly experience in communication with the celestial in a way I hadn't heard before, is really exciting to me. So I think with all of those interests, it's just like, exploring different means of articulating my experience.
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Sam: Thank you so much, we just have a couple more questions for you. First, what's been influencing you lately? Have been listening to any music you've been loving, reading anything, what's been on your mind?
whoswyLee: Yeah, so I think what I've been listening to - I can't remember when exactly I reached this point, but I feel like if you look at previous interviews of mine, I would talk about like, oh, my primary inspirations are like Beyoncé, and Solange, and Young Thug. And as I'm growing more, you know, human beings being human beings, like each one has found a very unique way to disappoint me.
And I don't want the hive to come after me for that. But you know, human beings being human beings, so I feel like I'm primarily listening to and drawing inspiration from my friends. I have a lot of really talented friends in my sphere of contact. And you know I'm going to shout out to Amiri, I’m going to shout out Momadou, I'm going to shout out Isaac Thursday, I'm going to shout out Changan Oman. And that's really what I'm meditating on as I'm working, and they really are pushing and inspiring me.
Like recently, I had two friends who both dropped on the same day. It was Isaac and Chloe TV Nomad, who I know came up in Momadou’s interview, as well. And, literally, after hearing both of the albums, I was like, I can't go to sleep. I have music to do, I have work to do. So I feel like they are becoming my driving force more than anything else.
As for what I'm reading, I've been trying to read more poetry. So I have the June Jordan Reader, which sits decoratively on my desk and I haven't really touched it much yet, but I also shout out Malachi Jones “Forget Us Not”! I've been beginning to page through that, I've been reading a lot of Afro Pessimism. To that extension, I've been reading Sadiya Hartman’s “Scenes of Subjection.” So I think it's a good mix between music from my friends, you know, delving into critical theory, and then lowkey also Twitter as a resource. So I've been engaging with a lot of whatever comes up on my timeline.
Sam: That all sounds like a lot to check out. And last question, what should we expect from you next?
whoswyLee: I think in the immediate, immediate future, probably a few more demos, because I'm definitely trying to sharpen some of my skills and, also, I think just get in the habit of just like putting stuff out, not necessarily for the sake of like the streams and the numbers and, you know? I've had a lot of friends who've been helpful in, I guess, taking me out of the careerist mode of being and taking me out of prioritizing the commodification of my work and of my gifts. So yeah, I'm just putting music out to put it out, to see if other people connect with it and want to make music with me.
I think you can expect a lot of posts about astrology readings, because I'm trying to develop those skills as well. I'm working on a couple of very, very exciting projects that I cannot speak on at this point in time, but when they hit, you will know. So that's also just like on the horizon for me, I think.